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| Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46306 |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
 Customer complains that a certain string seems to be difficult to tune to pitch and have it stay there.... Over the years bridge pins have devolved with advancements in technology and materials, and the ever present need for some manufacturers, not all.... to cut costs. So my friends what's happening in this picture? PS: Happy Sunday morning to ya too! |
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| Author: | Greg Maxwell [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
I know! I know!  Incorrect stringing technique combined with cheap plastic slotted pins = damaged bridge plate. I just repaired one of these this week. Also gave the owner a stringing tutorial. |
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| Author: | Bob Matthews [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Nice section thro the guitar top Hesh, I take it that not the way to repair it? 
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| Author: | Ken Lewis [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
I guess he won't be complaining about that one any more. You fixed it.  Ken |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Hint: Birdge pins did not used to be slotted back in the day. Related: 5 or 3 degree taper.... PS: This is a demonstration board and I'm only showing one panel from it at the moment. Dave Collins put this together some years back to show the devolution of the bridge pin. So my friends what's happening in this picture and why did it happen? Bonus points for describing a fix to the guitar structure and further bonus points for describing what would have prevented this from happening at all. PSS: It's not an uncommon thing either and one of the reasons why many guitars that come into our shop get a bridge plate inspection. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Hesh: No worries......! Once the ball has chewed it's way to the bridge it'll be a solid as a rock......! Or the question.... Is it going to hurt my guitar to slot the bridge, it came from the factory that way, they must know what they are doing. They sure do know.....out of sight, out of mind and the extra money rolls in....!! It just seems so crazy to put so much effort and cost into something and then nickel and dime it to death. Time for me to shut up. Tom |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
I would 't want to be around when you give that customer back what's left of his guitar. |
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| Author: | Fred Tellier [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Hesh buddy how did you find that picture on my Photobucket are you stalking me? LOL Fred |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
What? Just some exploratory surgery, some duct tape, Bondo, ep*xy, and chewing gum and it will be all good...  OK the picture depicts a guitar with slotted, plastic bridge pins. Slotted, plastic bridge pins are what the bridge pin devolved into these days. The advantage to manufacturers is that no semi-skilled labor is required to slot the bridge, top, and bridge plate for unslotted pins. It's a pretty simple process too and can even be done with a power jig saw in a minute or two so it's really pretty cheap of manufacturers to not do this. The disadvantage is that slotted pins permit the string ball to ride on the edge of the hole in the bridge plate. Time, vibration, tension, etc. all combine over time to let the string ball eat away at the edge of the hole in the bridge plate. At some point the string balls start to migrate upward through the path of least resistance, the pin hole enlarging the hole in the bridge plate. If this is not caught sooner rather than later and in combination with brother and sister pin holes also having the string balls eat away at them as well the bridge plate can either crack in alignment with the pin holes of crease also in alignment with the pins hole. By the way this is a pretty common thing that we see frequently... Either condition since it changes the geometry of where the bridge sits and is glued on can also lead to the bridge lifting and often does. A lifted bridge in our shop is sure to get a bridge plate inspection as well to be sure that there are not structural reasons for the lifted bridge. That lifted bridge.... since it is one of the very most important braces on the entire guitar may after lifting encourage top cracks. So there you have it this is a condition that if not addressed may require the bridge plate to be replaced or capped. It may also require a bridge to be reglued and it may as well create cracks that have to be repaired. Why? Because of the advent of cheap, plastic, slotted bridge pins that's why....  Our 1870's Martin has unslotted pins and the bridge plate looks like new. Come to think of it I have never had to repair a bridge plate where the instrument originally had slotted pins. Solution: Use and build with unslotted pins and instead slot the bridge, plate, and top. A related discussion and this is a question that I am throwing out here mostly for some of the newer folks who have not had this posted prior. Unslotted bridge pins come in 3 and 5 degree tapers. Any advantage to one or the other and what's the advantage? |
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| Author: | DannyV [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Someone went and glued the BP and string in it hole and then glued the string to the saddle.  Somewhere down the road you had brought up not using slotted pins and it makes good scene to me. I have been doing it ever since. It's too bad most of the reasonably priced wood or bone bridge pins available today are slotted. If I use slotted pins I put a little bevel on the unslotted side and instruct the customer that the bevel goes on the ball side. It also makes it easier for the ball to ride up to the plate. Thanks brother! |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Hesh wrote: A related discussion and this is a question that I am throwing out here mostly for some of the newer folks who have not had this posted prior. Unslotted bridge pins come in 3 and 5 degree tapers. Any advantage to one or the other and what's the advantage? 5 degree pins will generally not fill the hole all the way to the bottom. Pilot Hole size (3/16") allows the string ball to pass through but the pin diameter when fitted will be much less where it passes through the bridgeplate. |
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| Author: | Greg Maxwell [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Stringing technique is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions. IMHO proper stringing technique can greatly prolong bridge plate wear even in less than ideal situations. I will agree that technique is less of an issue if unslotted pins are used. In my shop about 1% of incoming guitars have unslotted pins, so educating customers is something I do a lot of. And Stew Mac's bridge plate repair tool does great work without having to replace damaged plates. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Regarding string changing technique-- There's something I do as a player. I'm not sure whether many others do this, but I find that it practically guarantees I don't have an issue with the string ball end staying where I want it to be: I take all the strings off at the same time, and I install all of the strings at the bridge before I insert any of the strings into the holes in the tuning gears. This allows me to reach in through the soundhole and make 100% sure, by feel, that the ball end for each string is seated properly and the bridge pins are all snug in their respective holes. So, when I tune up, there are none of those little slips of the string that surprise you and scare the crap out of you. As a builder, I cut slots in the bridge for each string; the walls of those slots bear the tension from the strings, not the bridge pins. But reaching in helps me make sure everything is good, no matter who built the guitar. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
DannyV wrote: Someone went and glued the BP and string in it hole and then glued the string to the saddle. Somewhere down the road you had brought up not using slotted pins and it makes good scene to me. I have been doing it ever since. It's too bad most of the reasonably priced wood or bone bridge pins available today are slotted. If I use slotted pins I put a little bevel on the unslotted side and instruct the customer that the bevel goes on the ball side. It also makes it easier for the ball to ride up to the plate. Thanks brother! You are very welcome Danny bro! Back eight years or so on the OLF we talked about unslotted pins, 3 degree pins, etc. so all of my guitars after number 5 or so were built with unslotted, 3 degree pins and my bridge plates seem to be doing just fine. The bevel on the pin end is a good trick too and lots of guitars these days with square pin ends do suffer from the string ball not seating properly against the bridge plate. That bevel corrects this as you mentioned and is a good idea! Thanks Danny bro! |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Jeff Highland wrote: Hesh wrote: A related discussion and this is a question that I am throwing out here mostly for some of the newer folks who have not had this posted prior. Unslotted bridge pins come in 3 and 5 degree tapers. Any advantage to one or the other and what's the advantage? 5 degree pins will generally not fill the hole all the way to the bottom. Pilot Hole size (3/16") allows the string ball to pass through but the pin diameter when fitted will be much less where it passes through the bridgeplate. Exactly!!! That's the entire point of 3 degree over 5 degree. It's a bit of a nit but hey that never stopped some of us... Good going Jeff! 3 degree pins are harder to find but I've been able to find them whenever I need them or have them made. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
Greg Maxwell wrote: Stringing technique is rarely mentioned in these types of discussions. IMHO proper stringing technique can greatly prolong bridge plate wear even in less than ideal situations. I will agree that technique is less of an issue if unslotted pins are used. In my shop about 1% of incoming guitars have unslotted pins, so educating customers is something I do a lot of. And Stew Mac's bridge plate repair tool does great work without having to replace damaged plates. Exactly too! We can turn slotted pins around but I never liked this idea unless the instrument is mine. Somewhere down the road someone else is going to change strings and a slotted pin with a slotted bridge, top and plate is a nightmare waiting to happen. As such I only use unslotted pins when the guitar is set up for them but never use slotted pins even turned around when a guitar is set-up for unslotted. We offer a service to covert and this means pitching the slotted pins just to avoid any mistakes down the road. Thanks Greg! |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Bridge Pins - What's Happening Here.... |
doncaparker wrote: Regarding string changing technique-- There's something I do as a player. I'm not sure whether many others do this, but I find that it practically guarantees I don't have an issue with the string ball end staying where I want it to be: I take all the strings off at the same time, and I install all of the strings at the bridge before I insert any of the strings into the holes in the tuning gears. This allows me to reach in through the soundhole and make 100% sure, by feel, that the ball end for each string is seated properly and the bridge pins are all snug in their respective holes. So, when I tune up, there are none of those little slips of the string that surprise you and scare the crap out of you. As a builder, I cut slots in the bridge for each string; the walls of those slots bear the tension from the strings, not the bridge pins. But reaching in helps me make sure everything is good, no matter who built the guitar. I do this too and it's a good practice and helps me just like you know that my string balls are properly seated..... Related is stringing a Fender with the trem such as a strat. Often the string balls catch on the outside of the hole in the trem bottom and are not seated. The fix for this is to bevel the hole openings at 45 degrees and then the string balls just about seat themselves. By the way on my personal stuff I always take all the strings off too, clean the board with OOOO steel wool, condition the board with Howard's, polish the guitar and then restring. Thanks Don. |
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